SMG: purchase option

[sniperbullethero]

smg doesnt feet commando playstyle

[fausje]

Citaat:The reverse argument, that Gunners and Soldiers are meant for the furball, has been totally thrown out with long range pistols, shotguns and automatic weapons. In effect, what you are saying here is that you don't want a level playing field for Commandoes.

I wouldn't call shotguns and automatic weapons (e.g. machineguns) accurate and precise. LR pistols are accurate and precise, but they don't deal as much damage as snipers (luckily).

Citaat:No one has special abilities for everything. Even a maximum level toon doesn't have Everything.

Piercing shot: snipers. Poison blade: knives. Burning bullets: SMGs. Frenzy fire: machineguns. Next.

Citaat:Even with Stealth 5, a Commando is visible when they get close. In any case, you cannot have it both ways. EIther it is over balanced, or they are too weak. As to the healing widgets, that is true of most Commandoes now.

SMGs are mostly used in mid-range situations (which is what they are made for, as seen in the in-game tips). There's no reason to go this close with an SMG.
The fact that most commando's use healing widgets doesn't justify them using it or make it the general rule.

[FlaSh[b]aCk]

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

(25-03-2012 06:14 PM)DeineMutter96-1 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

(25-03-2012 06:22 PM)trapman19 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

+1

(25-03-2012 06:28 PM)Fealesh1 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

[Arkahios]

To make further augments against this. While classes do share weapons, the weapons shared are considered secondary.for example Gunners do not get snipers or SMGs however they get shotguns which are designed to be considered secondary.

To emphasis the point every weapon that has an ability attached to it is not shared and further proves that they are primaries. Shotguns and pistols do not have any enchantment points to them there fore are able to be shared.

and for the sake of argument lets just say Commandos are given access to SMGs and other primary weapons. This leads to a slippery slope of arguments, ones the developers have no intent on creating.


Examples would be...
Why don't commandos get burning bullets.
Why don't gunners have access to Snipers.
Why can't soldiers have access to rocket launchers.
Why don't soldiers get a speed ability (gunners and commandos do).
Why can't soldiers get rocket launchers.
Why can't Gunners get SMGs.
Why can't commandos get MG's.

[CFoss]

I'll try and address the various retorts.

Commandoes are the ONLY class that does not have a built in healing potential, so, unless you expect them to depend entirely on the whimsey of Soldiers, they either take damage and run around injured or they use healing widgets.

Medium range combat, yes, my point exactly. A Commando has no rebuttal to mid-range combat that is effective. You'll notice that no one is running around using pistols as a primary weapon for anything except sniping substitutes. the reason for that is the fact that they are junk compared to other alternatives. Close range pistols can't even kill a Commando without a randomly generated critical hit without needing to be reloaded.

As to comparing giving Commandoes SMGs and demanding that, "I need access to Abilities from another class", this is facetious nonsense, apples and oranges as it goes.

I also note that, while everyone is talking about Stealth and edged weapons, no one commented on the fact that the blowtorch is better at dealing damage than the "primary" weapon of the class in question.

[Diggidy]

I've been using a stolen tommy's typewriter on my nat mando and I have to say, it's pretty balanced.

[Arkahios]

(28-03-2012 02:48 AM)CFoss schreef:  I'll try and address the various retorts.

Commandoes are the ONLY class that does not have a built in healing potential, so, unless you expect them to depend entirely on the whimsey of Soldiers, they either take damage and run around injured or they use healing widgets.

Medium range combat, yes, my point exactly. A Commando has no rebuttal to mid-range combat that is effective. You'll notice that no one is running around using pistols as a primary weapon for anything except sniping substitutes. the reason for that is the fact that they are junk compared to other alternatives. Close range pistols can't even kill a Commando without a randomly generated critical hit without needing to be reloaded.

As to comparing giving Commandoes SMGs and demanding that, "I need access to Abilities from another class", this is facetious nonsense, apples and oranges as it goes.

I also note that, while everyone is talking about Stealth and edged weapons, no one commented on the fact that the blowtorch is better at dealing damage than the "primary" weapon of the class in question.

To adress your "rebuttals"

You first address that Commandos do not have a healing potential which is another way of saying ability and then address that your are no spekaing of sharing abilities between classes. Which is a fallacy of inconsistency as you address it in that very same post.

The blow torch is given to soldiers which as it turns out suck with it as they do not have stealth, nor a speed boost, and therefore do no have first strike capability which results in various failed and funny attempts to use it.

To argue that commandos have no mid range is rather silly as the fast sniper is very effective at pretty much any range long to short. The fast sniper is also near impossible to counter as it can kill a solider is matter of 1-2 seconds before they can even hit their heal button they are dead.

But to address the main point of SMG's i restate my previous arguments about primary weapon and the slippery slope is WILL lead to if it is breached. As well as in reality the SMG that gets used the most is a short range weapon and a pistol which is a far range weapon.

Also Commandos will be more effective with an SMG than the class it was intended for. For example it is an automatic and commandos have stealth. The commando strikes with the short range SMG and gets about 2-3 seconds of advantage on the solider meaning about 30~50 damage. The soldier heals, commando is not close enough to BS so the solider has to shoot back, Commando uses Elixir and stays out of BS range while pounding with the SMG, short, medium, or long. The shield from the elixir gives the commando not only a speed advantage, but shield and even the dust could to disorient the soldier. The solider can not run away, can not BS the commando, and has disadvantage is all cases.

As far as a your argument goes it is shallow and the basis of it is based on sharing weapons and it being unfair that commandos have not real mid range combat option. All classes have faults some where and the developers intended it to be that way. You need to reconstruct your arguments and come up with more compelling reasons why a commando NEEDS an SMG because the argument you have now is nothing. And your rebuttals are not sufficient they attack other players but actually prove nothing. I suggest you take some time develop a more reasonable and full proof argument and try again, as it stands most of the community is against it and therefore is not aiding your cause but in fact undermining it.

[AAnnoo]

(25-03-2012 05:57 PM)CluckyXL schreef:  i absolutely agree, commando is way too underpowered

*Stops rofling & starts typing*

Let´s take a look at mando abilitys & weapons:

Stealth: Aww...srsly this is useless...
Piercing Shot: Big damage bonus on rifle shots, Ossum for knife!
Poison Blade: Uh...damage bonus & damage over time for knife, Ossum for rifle!
Troop Trap: Wouldn´t that be awesome if I throw it into the water?
Elixier: EAsy! WHY YOU GIVE MANDO SUCH USELESS ABILITYS?!?!?!?!?11!
Mark Target: As useless as stealth...why EAsy isn´t removing this??

Let´s take a look at weapons now:

Slow Rifles: Nice for close range fights! (Never use scope...itz nubeh!)
Fast rifles: Nice for long range fights...also used without scope.
Moderate rifles: Slow shots, low damage. Use it!

Knife: Awesome for long range fights!
Uber Knife: Even more Ossum for long range!

Short range pistol: Best for camper mandos on the other side of the map!
Moderate range pistol: Best for shooting that sneaky, annoying water!
Long range pistol: You should always use it against gunners and soldiers if you´re right behind them!

If you´re getting killed don´t forget to say: "OH MY GAWD U NUBEH S/MG USER!!11oneone!1!"
If you don´t follow all these tips you´re a bad commando.

[The_WUUSTER]

(27-03-2012 08:24 PM)FlaSh[b]aCk schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

(25-03-2012 06:14 PM)DeineMutter96-1 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

(25-03-2012 06:22 PM)trapman19 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

+1

(25-03-2012 06:28 PM)Fealesh1 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

Quote Mastery IV

[AAnnoo]

(28-03-2012 02:28 PM)The_WUUSTER schreef:  

(27-03-2012 08:24 PM)FlaSh[b]aCk schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

(25-03-2012 06:14 PM)DeineMutter96-1 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

(25-03-2012 06:22 PM)trapman19 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

+1

(25-03-2012 06:28 PM)Fealesh1 schreef:  

(25-03-2012 05:53 PM)Crowley69 schreef:  This is the funniest thread I have read all day.

Quote Mastery IV

More spam Mastery IV, I guess...

[FlaSh[b]aCk]

(28-03-2012 02:48 AM)CFoss schreef:  Medium range combat, yes, my point exactly. A Commando has no rebuttal to mid-range combat that is effective. You'll notice that no one is running around using pistols as a primary weapon for anything except sniping substitutes. the reason for that is the fact that they are junk compared to other alternatives.

You need to do some researching before posting and making a fool out of yourself. Playing as a DUAL LR pistolero, yes using 2 pistols, commando you find yourself in mid range all the time. This is also the build that has the highest SPM(score per minute) out of all possible as a commando. And they're not junk compared to other alternatives. A commando with 5 MT can keep the enemy mando's exposed the whole time, whilst running around with elixir rendering them the hardest target to hit on the battlefield.

[AAnnoo]

(28-03-2012 06:39 AM)Diggidy schreef:  I've been using a stolen tommy's typewriter on my nat mando and I have to say, it's pretty balanced.

Just saw that....
Tommys = smg
Commando = non-smg user
Thread = senseless cause only soldiers should and will be able to use SMG
You = talking total bullsheet ;3

[CFoss]

(28-03-2012 04:02 PM)FlaShaCk schreef:  

(28-03-2012 02:48 AM)CFoss schreef:  Medium range combat, yes, my point exactly. A Commando has no rebuttal to mid-range combat that is effective. You'll notice that no [b]one is running around using pistols as a primary weapon for anything except sniping substitutes. the reason for that is the fact that they are junk compared to other alternatives.

You need to do some researching before posting and making a fool out of yourself. Playing as a DUAL LR pistolero, yes using 2 pistols, commando you find yourself in mid range all the time. This is also the build that has the highest SPM(score per minute) out of all possible as a commando. And they're not junk compared to other alternatives. A commando with 5 MT can keep the enemy mando's exposed the whole time, whilst running around with elixir rendering them the hardest target to hit on the battlefield.

First, you fall victim to the thing you accuse me of. You put forth LR pistols as a solution to the other ranges as a reason why commandoes shouldn't have an SMG. The comparison is different classes of weapons for different situations.

Second, you insist on a maximum solution for success, which means that if you cannot afford that maximum solution, the argument is invalid. My argument is, if you have a reasonable amount of battlefunds, say $10, then you can buy the item in question. You CANNOT buy levels of Ability.

Finally, you invalidate the argument by making changes to my statements to make your own points. You have not addressed my argument at all.

[CFoss]

(28-03-2012 12:40 PM)Arkahios schreef:  To adress your "rebuttals"

You first address that Commandos do not have a healing potential which is another way of saying ability and then address that your are no spekaing of sharing abilities between classes. Which is a fallacy of inconsistency as you address it in that very same post.

You have made some fairly major changes to my statement, as I said built in healing potential, and I meant the word potential as it is still a choice as to whether or not to acquire Combat Medicine (beyond the first rank) or Frenzy Fire. Commandoes have no such Ability option. In any case, I was responding to someone else's post which means that YOU are engaging in an Ad Hominem attack in an attempt to undermine my original topic.

(28-03-2012 12:40 PM)Arkahios schreef:  The blow torch is given to soldiers which as it turns out suck with it as they do not have stealth, nor a speed boost, and therefore do no have first strike capability which results in various failed and funny attempts to use it.

Again, you ignore the point that it does far better damage than any of the edged weapons. Since it is possible to kill someone with it faster than the knife, it Can be used effectively when you know how. I have encountered three different players with the blowtorch, and all of them were quite capable of holding off any Commando they were aware of. Your response is also a falacious, depending on and Appeal to Emotion in that you mock the point I am making in your "various failed and funny attempts to use it".

(28-03-2012 12:40 PM)Arkahios schreef:  To argue that commandos have no mid range is rather silly as the fast sniper is very effective at pretty much any range long to short. The fast sniper is also near impossible to counter as it can kill a solider is matter of 1-2 seconds before they can even hit their heal button they are dead.

I will concede this point, but I would counter that it still relies on Stealth to be successful. In every case, your arguments depend on a ability that has a significant refresh time, where as my primary reason for wanting the SMG as a choice of weaponry is FOR that time where the Commando does not have access to Stealth.

I would also point out that, while a Commando tends to move through the game individually, Soldiers tend to be part of a group. Killing one member of the group is not a solution when you get gunned down by the rest of them. To forestall the argument that you should not be able to kill a group, I point out that the Commando is still the weakest toon in terms of Health. The SMG just reciprocates the invasion of the other two classes into the sniping territory of the Commando by giving them the ability to fight more effectively Between knife and rifle range; effectively, giving them the equality that the other classes have in the Commandoes' specialty.

(28-03-2012 12:40 PM)Arkahios schreef:  But to address the main point of SMG's i restate my previous arguments about primary weapon and the slippery slope is WILL lead to if it is breached. As well as in reality the SMG that gets used the most is a short range weapon and a pistol which is a far range weapon.

First, as You pointed out, it only becomes a slippery slope if the developers let it. Second, again, you are using the same argument I use in favor to support your position against. Justify why "EVERYONE should have a sniping function" while Commandoes should not have a reciprical ability in the other ranges.

(28-03-2012 12:40 PM)Arkahios schreef:  Also Commandos will be more effective with an SMG than the class it was intended for. For example it is an automatic and commandos have stealth. The commando strikes with the short range SMG and gets about 2-3 seconds of advantage on the solider meaning about 30~50 damage. The soldier heals, commando is not close enough to BS so the solider has to shoot back, Commando uses Elixir and stays out of BS range while pounding with the SMG, short, medium, or long. The shield from the elixir gives the commando not only a speed advantage, but shield and even the dust could to disorient the soldier. The solider can not run away, can not BS the commando, and has disadvantage is all cases.

You have expressed ONE set of circumstances and tried to use it as a total case. Let me run the scenario another way. The Commando attacks, getting surprise. The Soldier enables Burning Bullets and, all other factors being equal, the fight ends with a dead Commando because the Soldier uses a combination of his short range and long range weapons to respond no matter where the Commando is. The Soldier heals himself at least once before the Commando is back in the fight.

I play a Soldier with a long range (LR) SMG and I KNOW that I can compete effectively in LR damage output with a Commando that is not using Penetrating shot.

(28-03-2012 12:40 PM)Arkahios schreef:  As far as a your argument goes it is shallow and the basis of it is based on sharing weapons and it being unfair that commandos have not real mid range combat option. All classes have faults some where and the developers intended it to be that way. You need to reconstruct your arguments and come up with more compelling reasons why a commando NEEDS an SMG because the argument you have now is nothing. And your rebuttals are not sufficient they attack other players but actually prove nothing. I suggest you take some time develop a more reasonable and full proof argument and try again, as it stands most of the community is against it and therefore is not aiding your cause but in fact undermining it.

How very classically troll. You accuse me of abusing other players, slip in several jabs and then, if I respond, you can say that my response justifies your accusations. Since I have been debugging your arguments, this qualifies as an Appeal to Ridicule. I will remind you that you started down this road, not me.

In summary, my feeling is that the Commando needs the opportunity to BUY an SMG (perhaps limited to the short range varients) in order to be competative with the other classes which can duplicate every one of a Commando's basic combat capabilities when viewed as a whole.

[Calimaestro]

I can see it now.. the end of BFH.

No thanks.

[FlaSh[b]aCk]

Okay CFoss, your argument is that a commando does not have enough firepower to fight straight up versus, let's say a soldier. I'm just going to answer that with a question; Why would you even want to?

And if that is not your argument, then why do you even want SMG's for commando's? I mean if you're not gonna stand and fight, why have a fully automatic weapon?

Also, about my dual LRP solution. You do not need 5 MT, I'm talking about late game builds. All you need is elixir 3 and above, which means level 6. And I'm pretty sure you can reach that level without too much trouble, yes?

[CFoss]

No, I am not talking Only about straight up fighting, what I am talking about is a game play where stealth is not available immediately after you attack.

As to your Elixir argument, first your math is off since you cannot get rid of the Level 1 Stealth ability, but, more importantly, you are still locking the player into ONE style of game play.

[The_WUUSTER]

(28-03-2012 04:05 PM)AAnnoo schreef:  

(28-03-2012 06:39 AM)Diggidy schreef:  I've been using a stolen tommy's typewriter on my nat mando and I have to say, it's pretty balanced.

Just saw that....
Tommys = smg
Commando = non-smg user
Thread = senseless cause only soldiers should and will be able to use SMG
You = talking total bullsheet ;3

[FlaSh[b]aCk]

(29-03-2012 12:34 PM)CFoss schreef:  As to your Elixir argument, first your math is off since you cannot get rid of the Level 1 Stealth ability,

Dude. You gain one HP every even level.

2

4

6

Count for yourself.

Also, a commando should be staying fighting after he's popped stealth and killed someone. A successful commando must hit and leave.
A scoped in sniper is a sitting duck, a knifer that has blown all his abilities is a sitting duck. The only style of play that allows for sustained damage and sitll being able to neglect noticable damage taken is dual LRP. And I'd rather stick with that than using one SMG and a sniper. It's more effective.

I don't see how yo ucan sync an SMG with any of a commando's abilitie's to be completely honest.

[T3553RACT]

My eyes are bleeding from all this quoting >.<